| Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7054] |
Fri, 23 June 2006 08:24  |
woody96
Messages: 107
Registered: May 2001
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Senior Member |
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Folks, I also frequent a Peavey T60 website and made a post there bragging about Kustom amps......got this reply from a (what I thought) reliable person who frequents the Peavey T60 forum:
"Kustom didn't get away with their copying of Peavey amps. They introduced them at a NAMM show and probably had a court injunction before they got back home. I was there, and later had the stupid copy of a Peavey circuitboard with an abandoned trace on it. Hartley hasn't lost a lawsuit, yet! The man goes into everything he does, fully prepared. The front man at Kustom doesn't have a very good reputation throughout the industry. (Their amps work well)."
What do you guys think of this? Essentially, he is stating that Kustom (Bud....) copied Peavey's amp designs and was taken to task for it by Hartley Peavey in the late 60's early 70's........
Ideas? I would LOVE to refrute this!!!
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7056 is a reply to message #7055] |
Fri, 23 June 2006 12:57  |
woody96
Messages: 107
Registered: May 2001
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Senior Member |
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I am not sure; I guess during this time....the poster/thread just stated that flatly, Kustom (Bud) copied Peavey amp design and was taken to task for it......
Again, I cannot believe this.....and would love to prove this wrong!!!
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7061 is a reply to message #7056] |
Sat, 24 June 2006 15:23 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006
Registered: April 2003
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Senior Member |
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Woody:
I read Chip Todd's posts on the T-60 board, and I was surprised to hear his story. I give Mr. Todd a lot of credit for creating the all machine made guitar, the original T-60, but I would like to hear some real details about the incident before I would judge the story as true or not. Maybe through the fog of 35 years, he's mixed up the names involved, maybe not.
I've never heard of this before, and I've been working in music stores for a long time. As for the the timing, I know up North here, Peavey didn't really have a presence until 1969-1970. And I know Kustom had a showroom here at least 2 years before that.
I do know that both companies used designs that were more or less based upon original RCA designs. But this is true of probably half of the solid state amps out there at the time.
I hope that some of the other guys here will chime in and bring up any info they have on the subject.
Bill
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7074 is a reply to message #7054] |
Thu, 29 June 2006 08:39 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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Sorry for that. If anything it was the other way around. Kustom was flying high before Peavey was even thought about. Peavey is really a different design that Kustom. Kustom had great some looking, sounding, and selling amps. Kustom really had the first modern bass amp. Lots of headroom that Fender at the time lacked for bass. Bud ported their cabs with the big aluminum ports at first and then chromed ports that we all loved. They remind me of Robby the Robot in a good way.
Peavey had this lightning bolt insigna that did'nt look too great and the aluminum straps going down the front. Emminece made their speakers and CTS made Kustoms. Kustom cabs were mostly 8 ohm and if you got two cabs you had the 4 ohm load that the heads wanted to see. Peavey cabs were ususally 4 ohms and two made the full load of 2 ohms on them they liked. The Peavey porting system was the bottom baffle simular to what Fender used after the tone ring.
Bud later improved the design of Kustom to include more powerful heads and in the second cab slave amps. You could add as many as you wanted or your pocket book allowed you to. As the Pa's of the time were not that powerful. He deeped the cabs and slanted the heads to match. The only problem with that was that we lost the nice Plexi face head in that move.
Fender followed suit and drastically increased the size of their Bassman cabs but still no casters. Peavey cabs were too big to fit in your back as it was. They did'nt follow the slave amp policy of Kustom but increased the power of their heads to keep up.
Probably neither Kustom or Peavey copied the other. But they were both copied by companies like Plush and Earth very closely too. Thats probably who you had heard about copying who and the people that told you that got them mixed up.
I had Kustoms back in the day and I remember when Peavey came out. Thought I wanted one at first. Them being new on the scene and all. I bought one Peavey cab with the eventual thought of getting a Peavey set up. I ended up trading it for a Cascade 2x15 Kustom cab. I already had one Cascade Kustom 2x15.
I had a 66 Bassman at the time with two Bassman cabs and a Kustom Silver/white 3x15 and head. After I got that second Cascade Kustom I just kept getting more and more Kustom's and Fender's. I used my Kustom's primarily for bass, keyboards, and Pa monitors almost any thing. I used the Fender's for guitar only.
Bud sold Kustom and that started their down hill slide. But they seem to be coming back today with some respectful looking designs. Well thats History 101 for the day LOL..
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7080 is a reply to message #7078] |
Fri, 30 June 2006 02:53 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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I don't think that any thing that I could say would convince them (the peavey people) and I would only get hate mail (which I don't need) from them. But Kustom did not copy peavey. Its hard to copy a product that came after your already established product.
Most peavey people have a little bit of a chip on their shoulders because every one dishes peavey. In my opinion peavey is a good reliable amp. However they sound a bit soul less and the looks are atrocious.
Take for instance the Van Halen endorsement. First he said there would be no lightning bolt logo and no aluminum fins. Then even he dropped the endorsement. Since they are still building his guitar I would expect some sort of legal problems are gonna follow there.
Kustom on the other hand is every bit as reliable, has killer looks, and a good tone. So its hard not to like them especially after you've had one.
One of the things that you discover later on is that if you crank a Kustom with a guitar it suddenly starts to sound like a tube amp.
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7081 is a reply to message #7080] |
Fri, 30 June 2006 08:01 |
woody96
Messages: 107
Registered: May 2001
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Senior Member |
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I won't put that it was you or give your user name away.....I will just cut and paste some of your comments......I really want to add something to the thread there where someone flat out stated that Kustom (Bud) copied the Peavey design and was taken to task for it.....can I do this at least? I want to defend the Kustom line on there and clear this up a bit with some of the responses!!!
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7091 is a reply to message #7054] |
Sat, 01 July 2006 00:20 |
edforgothispassword
Messages: 202
Registered: July 2004
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Senior Member |
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I have had the pleasure of emailing with Chip Todd a number of times and I believe the guitar market owes him a lot more credit than he has gotten through the years when it comes to production and CC production facilities for guitar making..both with his original work with Peavey and for the work he did to help get Fender back track. I also know and talk with James Brown, also formerly of Peavey, now working with the new kustom company. I think highly of both men and their products and own many of their efforts...all this to say. I'm a Peavey fan when it comes to certain gear...so I have no bias when I say the following:
1) I have no knowledge of a PV/Kustom Ross Inc dispute. I have never heard Bud speak about it in the many hours of stories that he has shared with me..if it happened..it wasn't signigicant enough compared to all the other great stories he has told...and he's been quite honest about his early failed amp designs, his redesign, which sounded far inferior, but was more reliable..etc...
When I first was turned on to Kustoms, they were in all the local music stores..full model lines.....there wasn't a PV amp in sight...I don't know enough about amp design..but I believe that the early franks and the plexi A and B models use a "wideopen" amp design which I believe is quite different from the early PV stuff..but again.. I'm speaking out of ignorance and I admit it.
The only early law suite filings I am aware of..was kustom against Plush..which crossed the line with the kustom style knobs and faceplate..even though internally it was a mirror of the fender twin reverb circuit.. I've seen the schems on both..and its dead on.
But with both Kustom and PV competing successfully in the solid state market..and folks like fender's one SS attempt failing so miserably.. I can imagine that the simple SS designs probably crossed paths at some point...for my 2 cents.. I have a lot of respect for how solid and long lived both amp's have been... I don't own any of the old PVs..always thought they were just ugly cheap looking amps...I do own and use the classic tweed series by James Brown and my backline company rents those frequently as the pro market, albeit very quiet about it, requests those amps a lot...to me, there was no comparison between the tuck n roll cosmetic efforts of early kustom and the workingman's PV look...and even if one had copied the other...I would have never compared the two..so a market position was a non issue..maybe between the later kustom/kasino stuff..where both companies were competing in a budget market..but if you liked kustom tuck n roll rigs...there was no reason to look at the skanky PV offerings back in the early 70s...and in the 65-69 era..again, I never even saw a PV amp..and this boy used to make them drag me out of the store at closing time.
I have sold 7 of my PV guitars over the past couple years..but still own I think about 8 or 9..best effort PVs from the 89-91 custom era..(for you who know..that'd be the Falcon custom, generation, destiny models) a couple of them are my main weekend warriors.. I think more of them than I do my best fenders/gibsons,etc...
If I didn't have my kustom amps..I'd likely run a double set of the classic50 2x12 combos stacked on top of the classic 4x12 cabs as my personal rig...that's how much I think of them...PV will eventually be recognized for the massive input it has provided to the music industry..and will forever go down in history as the biggest company that everyone was embarrrased to play with....Hartley and especially while Melia was alive, kept the PV dream as on track as anyone could when a company grows that large.. Bud..sold kustom too soon and the corporate dicks managed to screw it up as usual..otherwise.. I guess we would have seen many a law suite between the competing companies who follow such close concepts in great amp design...to our brothers on the T60 site..let me just say..your guitars are ugly, your early PV amps are ugly and 30 years later..nobody really remembers when it was that either of them actually showed up on stage...but look back on the brief glory that was kustom..and you'll see the truth... Kool endures.....ET
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7092 is a reply to message #7081] |
Sat, 01 July 2006 05:52 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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Yeah go and ahead and cut and paste if you need to then. Just say you got it from some one who was around at the time that both of these amp lines were being produced.
I even worked for the state which subtracted some of the Peavey amps part sub assemblies. Ed is right gross looking then and now. For some reason they just don't get it there.
I do know that I would get off work and happen to go by that facility as part of my rounds. They'd dump any kind of part such as just name plates or whatever that did'nt met their quality control and you really could'nt see the flaws.
So the quality control was good. But obviously Kustom's was pretty good too. I have amps that are going on forty years old now that have never been taken apart and still work just as good as they ever did.
I have even dropped a Kustom head (by accident of course) out of the back of a truck. it hit the road and rolled a few times. We watched in horror. I thought it was a goner. We raced back and picked it up. It had a few minor scratches on the tuck n roll but it worked just fine when we plugged it in then and its still just fine today. See if you can find another brand that works that well after that kind of treatment.
Most new amps today would only find a shredded shell after something like that.
I really don't see why Peavey and Kustom people would wanna tangle in the first place. The problem was not them but Plush and Earth as I said earlier.
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7650 is a reply to message #7147] |
Mon, 02 October 2006 20:39 |
pinkelephant
Messages: 5
Registered: September 2006
Location: Pryor, OK
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Junior Member |
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Kustom vs. Peavey...
I'm trying to remember what Kustom gear we have had...other than my Kasino Club 210s, which sound freakin' awesome through my Altec 1214, esp. if i boost the treb just a bit.
I've been a hardc0re Peavey fan for years...our church had a Peavey XR-500 and a pair of the classic Peavey tower speakers. We retired those and moved up to a 16-channel mixer, a CS800, running both mains and monitors; mains are SP-2As, monitors are either 12 or 15" stage monitors...don't recall which. And then our prison team has used the Peavey Standard 260 for years. My new setup will have a hot-rodded Kasino cabinet powered by a Peavey M-3000.
All that to say that Peavey stuff has been rock-solid, reliable, and great-sounding...never had a problem with any of it, other than poor bass performance outta the Tri-Flex satellites (whaddya expect outta a 6.5" speaker?)... which is more than I can say for the Carvin gear that we tried around the same time that kept crashing out under the same loads that the Peavey handled flawlessly.
All that to say that I've never considered Peavey in any way substandard. Ugly as sin at times, but who makes a pretty amp? Other than Kustom. 
josh
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7661 is a reply to message #7054] |
Thu, 05 October 2006 02:51 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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Thats it Klassic. Good one. I had forgotten all about that one BC.. I remember now it was a take off of the Kustom Kat name.
It was a further advanced verision that Bud was at first planning to put out, then I think his son, and then finally after Baldwin they got control of Kustom.
So between all the musical chairs at the helm. Carly over at Peavey had designed what became called the Peevee Classic series released first. That was dreamed up to cash in on the Vintage rage.
Fender was really big into it as was Marshall. But Fender even more so. They had gone all the way back to the Tweed amps and still keep releasing more in the Vintage types of amps to this day.
The entire Custom shop line had Blonde Tolex and Marroon Grilles. I have a Tone Master from that series. Now they have the 59 Tweed Bassman reissue's and the 57 Twin Tweed reissue's. I even have a Fender Pro Jr in Tweed.
So Peavey put Tweed on their amp and put in some tubes in it and had instant Classic Vintage amp. Wink wink!. Of course since it was their orginal idea they couldn't have a Kustom amp running around called a Kustom Klassic now could they.
You might even say my new little red Kustom 36 Coupe is really the same sort of Vintage type of Vibe. But I suspose we shouldn't call it Classic, maybe just Vintage, or prehaps not vintage, or well it uh! looks like its older than it is. I know its a nostalagic amp. Yeah thats the ticket.
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7664 is a reply to message #7661] |
Thu, 05 October 2006 07:52 |
rodak
Messages: 516
Registered: October 2001
Location: Georgia
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Senior Member |
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Take-off on the Kustom Kat name? I don't get it. Did the Kat have a name?
Was the Peavey named "Classic" or "Klassic"? If it was Classic, then I think they had a lot of nerve pushing on Bud for using Klassic - I doubt that would have held up in court.
Probably just as well, though - Krossroad is a cool name, especially with the embedded "Ross".
Oh, just for my own 2cents on this old topic, I don't believe for a minute that Bud copied any of Peavey's designs. As I recall, the Kustom name was already well-established before anyone ever even heard of Peavey.
www.combo-organ.com
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7674 is a reply to message #7664] |
Fri, 06 October 2006 02:29 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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I whole heartedly agree with both of you on both accounts Rodak and BC.
I'd like to just have a Crossroads head. I still use two of my Kustom heads for Piano and Organ. I have two Kustom cabs set up for bass using a Behringer 450 watt head.
I use another single cab Kustom 200 to show the bass player his parts quite often while using another one of my basses. I'm not far off the mark on being as loud as he is. I would imagine the Crossroads would be a straight up match.
Off topic a bit how many basses are you up to now BC? I'm up to five basses and fourteen guitars LOL.. Two of the guitars are twelve strings though.
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7687 is a reply to message #7054] |
Mon, 09 October 2006 22:53 |
edforgothispassword
Messages: 202
Registered: July 2004
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Senior Member |
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while I've never personally seen one...yes, the pre-production Krossroads amp was a Klassic and he did run into his old "friendship" with PV on that as their Classic series was already in play..that was the tube rigs that were orginally cosmetic in the black rough finish and the silver bars on the grill..the tweed series came afterwards with the classic 20,30, 50,100 and delta blues being offered up first..oh, and a kicking 400watt bass head sitting on top of an 8x10 tweed cab..still would like one of those..it was a great bass rig.. I do have the 30, 50, and 100 tweed rigs in my backline inventory and they are great rigs.
The initial Klassic/Krossroads offering included the original style kustom knobs and was offered in a 500 watt powerhouse head with the 2x15 bottom..the head had a hum problem that Bud never could get resolved...then they started producing the dual cabinet stack which included the 500 modified head with the graphic slider eq and the 2x10 cab on top and the 1x15 on bottom as well as the 2x15 cab option..at that point they also came out with the combos which came in both 2x10 and 1x15 cabs with and with out the horn/biamp option..noted by the "H" in the model number...the combos used a totally different amp design rated at 200watts rms non-clippable at that level..very nice and pro grade..I still have 2 of them myself and they've been abused but still work great.
but then, I still have a CS400 out in the shed..bought it used for $20 so have no idea what kinda life it led before I decided to beat the crap out of it...and it still works fine, as does my PV500 powered PA head and graphic eq and multi fx unit and unity 8 channel mixer and my 2 nashville 400s and my vegas 400 and my Tim Landers signature 5 string bass and the Koa wood 4 string and my 7 PV custom guitars...all this to say.. I'm not knockin PV when I tell you I believe that Kustom came first and the initial Franks, A and B series took nothing from PV..maybe the later slants.. I don't know about them...or the tolex kustoms that came later thanks to the idiots that were Baldwin...but for the era that I love of kustoms...there was and is nothing like them.....ET
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7688 is a reply to message #7687] |
Tue, 10 October 2006 03:49 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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True to form Bud was way ahead of his time as usual. The Cross Roads would undoutably developed in to a monster amp had he continued with it. Probably the grounding service in home's and business were not up the par that they are today either.
I remember too that Gibson was in a simular law suit. The name Elite was already being used by another brand. To avoid suit Gibson called its poorer relation companies line Elitist instead. Since its only a very slight name change in spelling as is the case with Kustom and Custom. Bud would have probably won his case for Klassic over Classic with PeeVee.
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7690 is a reply to message #7054] |
Tue, 10 October 2006 08:56 |
edforgothispassword
Messages: 202
Registered: July 2004
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Senior Member |
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he probably could..but he also knew he didn't have the resources to duke it out..better to get to market..which is tough enough with a new product these days..and he has a lot of experience with that..and that was more or less his comment on it at the time...plus remember, you never know how a judge is going to rule..remember Fender's brush with Gretchdrums over the broadcaster? was it? guitar vs drums..but still fender had to change and our loving telecaster was born.
With kustom's them of playing the 'K' on everything..it still holds a klear implikation to model naming..and I think that would have been to Bud's disadvantage before a judge.
The Krossroads were pro level rigs..if anyone has had a chance to play one, they'll affirm that..I would be just as proud to play a full Krossroad rig as I am to play a kustom..and I can't say that about any other amp..nor the reissue kustoms, nor even my PV classics which I do think a lot of...in fact I will go as far as to say that the early Classic tweed series PVs were/are the best production amp on the market..and with my warehouse full of toys to choose from.. I'll pass over a marshall or fender current production rig every time and go straight to the Classic rigs..mind you we do retube every amp that we buy ...but tubes are all that I do to the PVs...with the Korg based marshalls, the new vox (can you say crap), ampegs, fenders...etc..you'll find my bench guy hand soldering cheap wave soldered boards, replacing different value resistors, rewiring with decent gauge...etc...quite a bit of work before I can consider those new production amps ready for pro stage rental use....and yet...35 years on.. I can still, and do , pull a lil kustom off the shelf load it up and go play a weekend band job..and some of those amps at most have seen a filter cap change, and some pot cleaner....well done Bud.
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| Re: Did Kustom copy Peavey amp designs??? [message #7707 is a reply to message #7705] |
Thu, 12 October 2006 03:48 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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I've got one of those newer Twin models now that have series and parrellel jacks in back as well as and impedance matching switch. Hook that up to the 4x12 with its internal 12's too and its a real beast.
Its still that same Twin clean though. It has a quarter power switch but there is still almost no difference in the volume.
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How about those new Coupe 36's and 72" Gimme some of that Input? Who's got some besides Dolly Parton and Lynryrd Skynyrd? 
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