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What is it? [message #20770]

Mon, 23 June 2014 23:48

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

Purchased these for $20 from a guy who had stored them in a barn for 20 years. He had no idea what they were only that he thought 2 of the eight speakers were shot. Turns out all four in each cabinet are torn. Speakers are definitely CTS......(137) 47 week of 1972. Speakers have square magnets,(4) 8 inch speakers per cabinet, 16 ohms each, number on speaker is 038-0012-00. Guy I know thinks these are guitar speakers. Anyone know what they are and what the wattage is. I would like to find suitable replacement speakers but not sure what I have. So far, only thing on the cabinet worth saving is the frame and Kustom logo's......everything else is shot. Are the speakers worth having reconed? Would like to use this for Kustom K400B PA/Bass head that I have just ordered. Thanks

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Re: What is it? [message #20771 is a reply to message #20770]

Tue, 24 June 2014 03:27

Kustom_Bart
Messages: 601
Registered: October 2010
Location: Greenville, MichiGUN

Senior Member

PA column cabinets. Count the pleats how many wide and how many tall and post that info and we will know for sure. They are made for vocals only. They will not take a bass or you will destroy the speakers, they are just not built to handle that type of movement. These are low wattage speakers maybe 25-30 watts each. Your best bet is to get bass speakers. It would cost you more to have them reconed than it is worth and then just blow them with a bass. Pleat can tell you the exact wattage, but the PA columns just don't hold up well to anything but vocals and guitar. I know, I used the Kustom PA we had at school for our band and when not playing at dances, used it for DJ'ing dances and the speakers didn't like it....lol!

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Re: What is it? [message #20772 is a reply to message #20770]

Tue, 24 June 2014 07:44

stevem
Messages: 4774
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

Hello!
You have the pa cabinets from a K100 pa and at best when new these where pretty poor for pa usage other than for low volume acoustic acts!
Your wish to use them for bass even with all new drivers will not work out well as the cabinets themselves are too small for low frequency reproduction, not to mention that the drivers themselves do not. Go down to low E frequency wise.
At this point you may be best to just sell the drivers off as is on ebay along with the Kustom logos.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 June 2014 07:53]

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Re: What is it? [message #20774 is a reply to message #20772]

Tue, 24 June 2014 18:38

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

P T Barnium was right, there's a sucker born every minute. I hit the booby prize then. Okay since bass is definitely out, and these cabinets are vocal only, they stand about 39 inches tall by 14 inches; I have ordered also 4 ch Kustom pa amp that is rated 100 watts @ 8 ohms and 200 watts @ 4 ohms. Any suggestions for replacement speakers that would work. Think that reconing the original would not be cost effective. What are your thoughts? Letting any Kustom die is a shame.

Another question, the reverb is supposedly out on the K400B PA/Bass amp that is coming. Replacement parts available? What about manuals that originally came with these amps........any copies floating around?

By the way, you guys are lifesavers. No one around hardly even remembers the old original Kustom equipment from the 60's nor how to trouble shoot them.

Final question. Have not been able to find Kustom bass cabnets online to use with the K400B. One guy did have a set but speakers were blown and wanted $200 for the pair. Until something does come along, I have found online a set of used JBL CAB45 PA cabinets that are 450 watts @ 4 ohms. They have (2) 15 inch woofers and (1) horn per cabinet.
Would running a bass thru these damage the speakers? Lots of amp heads around, but where are the cabinets.

Thanks again.

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Re: What is it? [message #20775 is a reply to message #20774]

Tue, 24 June 2014 21:17

pleat
Messages: 1454
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

Kustom made two versions of the short 4x8 PA columns. First version has all black grill cloth, and the second version has black grill cloth with silver threads. The first version each speaker is 16 ohms and each cabinet is wired series/parallel for a 16 ohm load cabinet. Two cabinets to the K100 would be 8 ohms total. The second version used 12 ohm speakers and wired series/parallel for a 12 ohm cabinet. Two cabinets would wired to the K150 PA head would be 6 ohms. I have a pair of red columns and my bass player has a pair of black columns. We've used them for side fill monitors and it's about all they are good for.

Not sure what Kustom 4 channel PA amp you have ordered that would be rated at 200 watts into a 4 ohm load. The old K200A and K200B series amps produce 100 watts RMS into a 4 ohm total load.

The K400B series head has two K200 power amps built into one massive head. It will have two speaker outputs per amp and located at each side on the back panel. Each amp wants no less than 4 ohms per amp.

The JBL PA cabs for bass? I'd think they would work for bass, and if the cabs have BI-Amp inputs, I'd use the low input that will not allow the horn to operate just to insure the horns won't cook on you.

I think you will always find more T&R heads than cabinets for the fact no one wants to pack and ship and the cost is really expensive. I'm in Michigan and have a CTS 3x15 bass cab in black that I'd sell but getting it across the country is the problem.

pleat

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Re: What is it? [message #20779 is a reply to message #20770]

Wed, 25 June 2014 01:15

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

Thanks for the info.......You also kind of answer a question a friend asked tonight, could these speakers be used as monitors? Since it sounds like that is what you are doing, what would you suggest for speakers? I do remember bands in the 70's using something like these laying on there sides in front of the band. Would make a real nostalgic look I think. Do my amps have monitoring capability.........what about bridging, think that is what it was called when hooking two amp heads together. Never saw it done with Kustoms but was wondering about using the one amp to support the monitors and the other to drive the mains.

On the 4 channel amp, sales guy said it was a 200 series, whether he knew what he was talking about or not....more than likely not since he didn't know what tuck and roll was.

On the K400B amp, as to the reverb issue, are the tanks all the same on all Kustom or is this one special? Have seen in resent threads that this seems to be an issue with Kustom amps.

If the JBL's are only wired one way, could I do some creative wiring and make two circuits controlled by double throw double pull switch so that I could turn the horns off when running amp as bass and then back on when using as a pa?

Michigan......girlfriend is from there and has family. This might be a good excuse to make a road trip.
Ordering JBL's tomorrow since there doesn't seem to be anything on the market at present.

Thanks again for all your help.

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Re: What is it? [message #20782 is a reply to message #20770]

Wed, 25 June 2014 07:02

stevem
Messages: 4774
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

A good pick for a replacement speaker is from parts express, part number 294-2471, they are all of 29 bucks and 16 ohms to boot which is hard to find!
That thread you read here on the reverb problem mentions the reverb pan that you need to get that K400s verb up and running again, but go thru that thread for the check out of the amp before wasting your time on getting a new pan.
Amps back than had there wattage rated in regards to peak power, not RMS power like today stuff, so a k200 head had 100 watts rms into a 4 ohm load, or some 60 watts rms into a 8 ohm load.
The K100 head states 60 watts rms on the rear lable, but only has 50 watts rms into a 8 ohm load, or some 28 watts rms into a 16 ohm load.
You can run a K100 into a 4 ohm load, but the amp will run twice has hot at any given volume as compared to running thru a 8 ohm load.
In this light if you ever run a K100 into a 4 ohm load, never run the volume knob over about 4 unless you can place a small fan blowing on the rear of the amp!
In regards to running monitors, the K200 and 400 heads have a RCA jack on the back that is made for feeding a tape recorder.
Its signal level output is quite hot for pumping into another Kustom with out padding it down by about half, other wise you stand a real good chance of popping the first gain stage transistor of whatever channel on the Kustoms you plug it into!

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Re: What is it? [message #20783 is a reply to message #20779]

Wed, 25 June 2014 07:13

pleat
Messages: 1454
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

My band has used the 4x8 columns for side fill monitors behind the PA stacks and one in each corner back of stage.
Bridging is not possible with Kustom amps as would be in a modern power amp, but you can run a signal cable from the RCA jack on the back panel to another amp that will drive additional speaker cabinets.

The reverb tanks are still available if the K400 isn't working or missing. There are lots of posts on this site dealing with reverb tanks. All the plexi-faced amps use a common tank.

A simple SPST switch that could be added to the JBL cabs to turn off or on the Mid horn if the cabs don't offer Bi-Amp inputs.

If you make it to Michigan, bring a van or truck and I can load you up on 2x15 or 3x15 kustom T&R cabinets. I have extras and know other collectors that might be willing to sell some.

pleat

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Re: What is it? [message #20787 is a reply to message #20770]

Wed, 25 June 2014 12:04

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

Once again awesome advice. Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand about "padding", how is this done?

I did see that MCM has some inexpensive 8 inch 8 ohm speakers rated at 70 watts rms for $14. Ohm's issue has me also confused. Since amps using two cabinets are designed in parallel, don't you want your individual cabinets rated at 8 ohms each to give you a total load of 4 on the amp to get maximum power if desired? Seems Kustom dropped the ball by not putting axil fans in the amp heads........what about me installing them in the two amps I have?

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Re: What is it? [message #20788 is a reply to message #20770]

Wed, 25 June 2014 13:35

chicagobill
Messages: 2006
Registered: April 2003

Senior Member

You are right about wanting to have each speaker cabinet to be 8 ohms so that when two are used, it will be a 4 ohm load on the amp.

Small fans were not very common on amps 45 years ago. Installing them into your amps can be done, but do you think that you really need them?

"Padding" is an old radio term that simply means reducing the level of a signal. It can be done with a few resistors or a variable pot, etc.

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Re: What is it? [message #20792 is a reply to message #20770]

Wed, 25 June 2014 15:50

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

I have lots of axil fans laying around from food service equipment that I have scraped out over the years. Since I am hearing that at low ohms you can over heat the amps and I do want to run at 4 ohms total for maximum power seems to me to just make sense ....eliminate the problem before it becomes one. Especially since my amps are not powerful anyway.

So what would you recommend using.....transistors, or pot....big question is how to you make it. Any websites that give details? I can read a schematic and pretty fair with a soldering iron. Thanks

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Re: What is it? [message #20793 is a reply to message #20792]

Wed, 25 June 2014 16:57

pleat
Messages: 1454
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

Lots of info on this thread, but I think we need to determine what the end results are in mind.

Assuming the 4x8 columns were in perfect working order, each column is 16 ohms. Two columns plugged into the K200 PA head presents a 8 ohm total load to the amp. The K200 heads are designed to run optionally at a 4 ohm total load to achieve the 100 watts RMS. You can always run a load greater than 4 ohms without concern other than lowering the output wattage.

These amps have lasted over 40+ years and they didn't require a fan back in the day, so I'd guess its not needed today as long as the the columns are correct.

If your going to use the 4x8 columns with the K200 PA head and you find you have some bad speakers, you might want to consider just replacing all the speakers with new 8 ohm speakers, wire them in series/parallel for a 8 ohm load for each column, and the two columns to the K200 head will give you the 4 ohm load to the amp head.

pleat

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