new reverb tank too bassy [message #20562] |
Tue, 06 May 2014 12:49 |
vintagefan
Messages: 166 Registered: March 2014 Location: Dallas
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After installing a new Tubes And More Mod brand reverb tank 4FB3A1B the amp's tone now has 30% more bass and I lose that transister footprint it seems. It sounds more like a Fender now than a Kustom.
My amp is a K100C-8 4x10. Is there another tank that would bring back the higher eq? Per instructions in another part of this forum, I installed the tank with it's input side located on the end of the amp as where it came out so not to get massive 60 hz hum.. I get zero hum and the reverb is nice and rich, just a little too bassier than the old one.......
In my original reverb tank, one spring had an end clip broken giving me a short reverb decay just using one spring. This amp has 10% more hi eq than my other 2 amps just like this one. Could one reverb spring not hooked up be what gives this amp more hi eq?
I reinstalled the old reverb tank and the amp has it 's higher eq back. Then I installed the new tank again, and it still has probably 30% more bass than the old reverb tank.
Is there another reverb tank to get more hi eq? Or a mod for this new reverb tank to get more hi eq?
Thanks.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2014 12:51] Report message to a moderator
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20563 is a reply to message #20562] |
Tue, 06 May 2014 17:08 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006 Registered: April 2003
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I'm a little confused here, but that's easy for me. Are you saying that the amp's tone has changed because of the new reverb tank or that the new reverb tank's tone is deeper than the old tank's tone?
I personally find that the new Korean made tanks are fuller sounding than the original ones, but not necessarily in a good way. My old ears are so used to the sound of the old style tanks, that the new ones start sounding too dark and muddy to me.
You could change the value of the cap that the return signal goes through to a smaller value. That would reduce the bass response of the return circuit and brighten up the sound a bit.
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20564 is a reply to message #20563] |
Tue, 06 May 2014 19:15 |
vintagefan
Messages: 166 Registered: March 2014 Location: Dallas
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Senior Member |
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With the new reverb tank, the reverb is noticably bassier and the tone of the amp is bassier too..... After putting the old tank back in, the reverb has more treble and the tone of the amp has more treble.... But the old original reverb tank has one spring unattached due to a broken clip that holds the spring, thus I get a short reverb decay.
Is it possible to repair the original reverb tank broken clip end?.....thanks.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2014 20:11] Report message to a moderator
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20565 is a reply to message #20562] |
Tue, 06 May 2014 21:03 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006 Registered: April 2003
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Senior Member |
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The only way to repair the tank is to replace the broken transducer assembly. I have done it before by taking the good parts from old tanks.
Which end is broken, the input or the output?
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20574 is a reply to message #20562] |
Wed, 07 May 2014 02:07 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006 Registered: April 2003
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Pleat, you are right about the last code letter. All Kustom amps that had the reverb tank mounted in the head cabinet used an open side up tank. My guess would be that Steve recommended that tank because it was available and met the more important parameters of the input and output impedances.
I guess that the new sound is what they were trying to get with these new tanks. I guess that means that the older USA made tanks will become a sought after item to some people.
Vintagefan, the input and output sides of the tank should be stamped into the metal case near each RCA jack.
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20576 is a reply to message #20574] |
Wed, 07 May 2014 05:01 |
vintagefan
Messages: 166 Registered: March 2014 Location: Dallas
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Senior Member |
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The end clip that is broken on the original reverb tank is on the input spring nearest the plexiglass.
This bassier sounding new reverb tank also has a shorter decay than the original tank. It sounds more like a medium decay. I have 3 of these K100C-8 4x10's. The other two amps have noticably more hi eq and more reverb decay. I installed this new reverb tank into the other two K100's, and then those two amp's sound changed to less shimmering hi eq and lesser decay. I also took one of the other K100's original reverb tanks and put it in the K100 that had the broken reverb tank. Then the amp had the shimmering hi eq and longer reverb decay.
Tech support from Tubes And More just emailed me a spec page which is beyond my understanding. They don't know what tank for me to buy.. If anybody has any other suggestions on other tanks to buy to try, I'd like to try them. They're not expensive.
Or does anybody have an original tank to sell? Or perhaps can anyone repair this original tank?
This new reverb tank does indeed fit perfectly and work well. Except it causes the amp to lose it's shimmering hi, has a lesser decay, and makes the amp sound more like a Fender.......thanks everyone.
[Updated on: Wed, 07 May 2014 05:01] Report message to a moderator
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20580 is a reply to message #20562] |
Wed, 07 May 2014 14:31 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006 Registered: April 2003
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Senior Member |
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Back in the prehistoric era, I was always repairing these reverb tanks. They pretty much are the weakest link in any guitar amp. Either the small wires that connect the transducer coil to the RCA jack would break or the spring mounting wires would break off, or the springs would come unhooked from the mounting wires, or the transducer coil would go open, etc.
Fender used to sell the transducer assembly so that if one end died all you had to was to drill out the rivet that holds down the assembly replace it with the new one, hook up the springs, solder on the wires and you were good to go.
Later on when labor costs became an issue, nobody repaired a tank anymore, they just swapped in a whole new one. I still check them to see if the hookup wires are connected, but it is rare that I will or need to repair a tank, as replacements are so cheap now. I guess that if the sound is changing enough to become an issue, I will have to rethink the repair concept, well at least for the players that can hear a difference and prefer the old sound.
When Accutronics was sold to Belton, the old Morley plant in Cary, Illinois retained a lot of NOS parts. I know that for a while they were selling repair services for vintage Hammond/Accutronic tanks on eBay. I did a quick search and didn't find any listings for repairs, but there was a listing for a dead tank that had the following posting:
Quote:UPDATE : I spoke with an a tech at Morley pedals who is associated with Accutronics. These reverb units can indeed be fixed! please contact : Scott Flesher at (800) 284 - 5172 x 15 if interested. You can find his email address at Morley pedals web page. He charges $35 plus ship. This unit will weight 2.5 pounds when boxed. Note if you want you can save on ship by having me send it to him first.
I don't know if this is still true or not, but it is worth an email or a phone call if you are serious about getting the old tank repaired.
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20581 is a reply to message #20580] |
Wed, 07 May 2014 15:36 |
vintagefan
Messages: 166 Registered: March 2014 Location: Dallas
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Thank you for taking time to research tank repair and the info. I will call him.
Yes, I want to either repair the tank, or buy an original from 1969-ish.
My amp is a 1969 Kustom K100C-8 4x10. Does anyone know what other 1969-ish Kustom products have a reverb tank that will work? If so, I'll look for some that are being parted out.
A word about the tone change with the new Mod tank..........I only play clean tele stuff, late 60's Gatton/Buchannon/Nichols sounds. The new tank is muddy bassy sounding.... maybe 30% more bass than the original tank.... the decay is more like medium, not long...... to me, Kustoms have a difinitive transister higher eq shimmering hi eq sound, especially with the bright switch pulled out. With the new Mod tank, the sound is like a dull Fender amp. I like the higher eq shimmering sound because in my home's den music room I can get good tone at volume 3 or 4 without rattling the windows or disturbing others in the house. And the four 10's give very good sustain. All other Fender, Line 6, and Crate amps I've had or heard don't have good tone until they are cranked up too loud for my den. I went the pedal route also. Although pedals can give as much eq as can be had, the Kustom tone is lost and the sound becomes too thin and the Kustom fuller sustain tone is lost.
But for someone not in a small studio listening for the Kustom higher eq shimmering sound and playing a small venue cranking the volume at 8, the Mod tank is probably ok to them....
I have a 1963 Gates Diplomat germanium transister broadcast mixing board which also has that germanium sparkly higher end eq footprint sound which I like.
I think Bud Ross had an ear for that transister sound which is unique if dialed in a certain way with his Kustoms.
[Updated on: Wed, 07 May 2014 16:37] Report message to a moderator
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20586 is a reply to message #20562] |
Thu, 08 May 2014 06:24 |
stevem
Messages: 4772 Registered: June 2004 Location: NY
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All Kustom K200-A model heads, all K200B models and all K100 and K150 non metal face amps use the same reverb tank.
I can understand the EQ change in the reverb signal with the new pan, but not the change in brightness in the clean non effect sound of the amp.
Has the number 1 non effect channel in the amp gone darker sounding too?
Just for kicks if you have a ohm meter I would check the resistance of the new pan and report back on it because it sounds like the clean tonal change is due to the pan loading down the input or output circuit of the amp.
If this is the case it may be due to you having a pan that is labeled wrong and is not the part number I told you to get.
[Updated on: Thu, 08 May 2014 06:26] Report message to a moderator
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20591 is a reply to message #20562] |
Fri, 09 May 2014 02:20 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006 Registered: April 2003
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Senior Member |
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The resistance readings on the new tank are fine. The 1475 number is the impedance and not the dc resistance. Your meter can only read dc resistance.
My guess is that the new tank is constructed to sound deeper and fuller and is just not bright like the old one is.
You can talk to the guys at Sound Enhancements to see if they can rebuild your old one to match the old specs, or you could try adding a bass limiting cap to the output of the new tank to try and tailor the sound to your liking.
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20592 is a reply to message #20591] |
Fri, 09 May 2014 03:07 |
vintagefan
Messages: 166 Registered: March 2014 Location: Dallas
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Senior Member |
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I found another reverb tank with the same input ohms and output ohms as the 4FB3A1B tank I bought.....Only this 2nd tank I found says ""designed to sound like vintage tanks," in the description.
Here's the 2nd tank I found, 4FB3D1B with specs saying 1475 ohms input and 2250 ohms output.....This tank's description says "designed to sound like vintage tanks," wheras the MOD 4FB3A1B I bought does not say this.
http://www.tubesandmore.com/products/P-RMOD-4FB3D1B
Here's the tank I bought, MOD 4FB3A1B with specs saying 1475 ohms input and 2250 ohms output
http://www.tubesandmore.com/products/P-RMOD-4FB3A1B
Do you think this 2nd tank(4FB3D1B) will work? If so, do you think it might afford more treble and a little longer decay to more closely match my original reverb tank? If it might, I'll try it.
Even tho I'm going to contact Scott Fisher about repairing my original reverb tank, I'd still like to find a new same sounding tank(or used) in case for some reason the original tank goes dead in the repair process. And to have as a spare for future needs.
thanks.....
[Updated on: Fri, 09 May 2014 04:11] Report message to a moderator
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20699 is a reply to message #20562] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 11:38 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006 Registered: April 2003
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Senior Member |
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Sound Enhancements is the company that owned Accutronics and Morley. A few years back, they sold the Accutronics reverb business, so they only make the Morley pedals now.
Because they have a stock of new parts left from the old days, they repair old tanks with the correct parts.
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Re: new reverb tank too bassy [message #20701 is a reply to message #20699] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 14:44 |
vintagefan
Messages: 166 Registered: March 2014 Location: Dallas
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Senior Member |
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Scott did an excellent job..... The rebuilt reverb pan retained the higher eq, which is why I like Kustoms.
Here's what Scott said he did:
I had to rebuild the output transducer but I found I had one from that same time period so I just had to disassemble the replacement transducer and your broken transducer then reassemble the transducer .
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