| Questions about K200B-4 [message #10408] |
Wed, 04 February 2009 15:46  |
Optyk
Messages: 125
Registered: August 2006
Location: Texas
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Senior Member |
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OK, on the K200B-4, you have two channels, each with a low and hi input. There are four effects, harmonic clipper, reverb, selective boost and tremolo/vibrato. My question is, do all four effects go to channel 1, or to channel 2 or to either of the two channels or to both of the two channels.
Next question . . . What is the difference between vibrato and tremolo? I've had amps with vibrato and a Vox Continental organ that had Vibrato. I don't recall seeing an amp that had tremolo on it, althought I might have. If you use either of them in your playing, which do you use most often? And what kind of music are you using it on?
Next question. . . how is the harmonic clipper compared to some of the more famous "fuzz" pedals, like the fuzz face or in particular the distortion pedal I use, the Boss Blues Driver 2. Similar tones? totally different tones, but great? I realize this is a very subjective question and that my mileage might vary from yours.
Next question. Is there a loss in output wattage because of the amp having to provide power to all the effects compared to a K200B-1, for instance and if so, how much of a power loss?
Is this truly "THE" Kustom head to own if you're a guitar picker? And Why?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Rod
There's only two kinds of music. . . . blues and zippity doo dah.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10409 is a reply to message #10408] |
Wed, 04 February 2009 16:04  |
Optyk
Messages: 125
Registered: August 2006
Location: Texas
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Senior Member |
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Nevermind about the vibrato/tremolo question. I googled it and wikipedia had an excellent explanation. What had me confused was hearing the two terms used interchangeably in the past. Which was obviously incorrect because they are separate things.
Rod
There's only two kinds of music. . . . blues and zippity doo dah.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10410 is a reply to message #10408] |
Wed, 04 February 2009 20:51 |
rodak
Messages: 516
Registered: October 2001
Location: Georgia
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Senior Member |
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I think we have Fender to thank for the Vibrato/Tremolo confusion. The former usually means pitch modulation, and the latter amplitude. I never could figure out why they labeled it Vibrato. Vibrato is easy to do on organs (where the pitch is easily controllable), but more difficult on amps (where pitch is NOT so easily controlled)
Can't answer your other questions, but I'm looking forward to hearing the answers from those who know.
www.combo-organ.com
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10412 is a reply to message #10408] |
Thu, 05 February 2009 06:14 |
stevem
Messages: 4773
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY
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Senior Member |
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The effects you see on each channel sre seperate(ie) you can not be plugged into the clipper channel and get reverb at the same time, you can take a Y cord and go into both channels, or take another cord and jump out of say the high jack if you plugged into the low jack of a channel, and then plug the jumper cable into which ever input of the other channel you wanted to use.
And yes, Fender has single handely made heaps of confusion with the labeling of tremolo as vibrato for ages, and is still doing it with the reissue serise of amps!
The sound of the clipper differs alot according to the speakers the amp is driving, it can be a little brash. I like it best thru the bass 15" cts drivers( a bit more mellow) but than for clean spanky tones I find I need to switch the brite on thru the cts drivers.
Yes, the amp have a slight difference in wattage, not a problem with guitar, but with bass or loud keyboards you may notice a difference in clean head room.
My #1 fully loaded head Kustom head for G-tar is a K150 OR k250, as you have way more tone tweeaking at your finger tips with these models.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10414 is a reply to message #10412] |
Thu, 05 February 2009 07:23 |
Optyk
Messages: 125
Registered: August 2006
Location: Texas
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Senior Member |
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OK, so you're saying that if you're plugged into one channel of the K200B-4, you can have reverb and vibrato/tremolo. Or, you can plug into the other channel and get clipper or selectone. To get all four effects, you have to have a jumper at the inputs between the two channels? is that correct?
I owned a Vox Buckingham back in the 60's. It had the same controls layout as a Super Beatle, so it had 3 channels. If I remember right, it was like this:
Channel 1: Volume, Treble, Bass, Top Boost (treble boost), "Tremolo" It also had distortion operatable by footswitch only with no controls to adjust the tone of the distortion.
Channel 2: Volume, Treble, Bass, Reverb, footswitchable MRB (Mid Range Boost, 3 position switch, probably similar to the Kustom Selectone routine) The MRB was the predecessor to Wah Wah. You could continuously rock the footswitch on the MRB on and off rapidly and achieve a limited wah effect.
Channel 3: A bass channel with Volume, Tone and a "Tone X" switch which was a bass boost.
OK, if you were plugged into channel 1, you could use Tremolo and Distortion, but not MRB or Reverb. If you were plugged into channel 2, you could use MRB and Reverb but not Tremelo or Distortion. Fortunately, each channel had two inputs (yes, 6 inputs on that amp!!) and you could jumper from channel 1 to channel 2 and have all the effects available at the same time.
I don't remember how I figured that one out, but it worked. Great amp and sure did a nice job pulling great sounds out of my Guild Starfire. My only complaint was the tone on the distortion. You got that "fuzz" sound I always related to the sounds on the song "Satisfaction" by the Rolling Stones. But if you were playing Cream or Jimi Hendrix or Grand Funk Railroad, the sound was terribly thin.
Anyway, I know you didn't log on to read about Vox amps. I was just relating my experience dealing with an amp where you couldn't get all the effects simultaneously without some workaround.
OK, Retro Mode Off!!!
Rod
There's only two kinds of music. . . . blues and zippity doo dah.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10416 is a reply to message #10408] |
Thu, 05 February 2009 12:20 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006
Registered: April 2003
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Senior Member |
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Here's my 2 cents.
Fender used the word tremolo to describe the Strat vibrato unit. I don't know if this was because they didn't know the true meaning of the terms or if this was a marketing idea, but when they added tremolo to the amps, they swapped the terms and called it vibrato.
As for the K200B-4, I never liked the fact that you couldn't get all of the FX to work together. While I wouldn't really use all of them at the same time (at least now, maybe back in the 60's), but I would use a combo of reverb and the distortion or selectone.
Later when I got my K200A-4 head, I found out that all of the FX are on one channel, so any combination is possible. Also the A-series distortion and selectone have their own level controls. The next generation metal front amps went one step further making the FX work on both channels.
You mentioned the Thomas Organ Vox amps, and they were similar in concept, but the reverb was switchable to either the normal or the bright channel. The only combination that you couldn't have was the MRB and distortion/tremolo.
The distortion is really a fuzz tone, not very subtle and nothing like your Blues Driver. It would be more like the Fuzz Face or the Maestro Fuzz Tone in sound.
I will disagree with Steve on the power output question, as there shouldn't be any decrease in output power while using the FX.
As for why these are the "one" for guitar players, I guess because they have all of the features and because Fogerty played one (K200A-4) and used the FX on a lot of those CCR tunes.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10418 is a reply to message #10416] |
Thu, 05 February 2009 17:25 |
Optyk
Messages: 125
Registered: August 2006
Location: Texas
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Senior Member |
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I had forgotten about that switch on the Vox Buckingham that let you throw the reverb to the normal channel or to the lead channel. I ran mine with a jumper between the two channels so I got all the effects through the lead channel
You're dead on about the distortion on the Vox. Definitely like the Fuzz Face. I can get that sound off my BD-2, but I prefer something more like a SRV or George Thorogood type growl. I get those also.
OK, so the K200A-4 has all the effects one channel and no effects (I presume) on the other channel?
What's the difference between the A Series and the B series in the K200's? One would presume the B series would be an upgrade, but in effects availability, it sounds like a downgrade.
I thought Fogerty's amp was a B Series, but you're telling me it was an A series, which means he had all the effects on one channel. So, I'm presuming that a K200A-4 is much more sought after than a K200B-4
You mentioned that on the Vox Buckingham, you couldn't have reverb, MRB and Distortion at the same time. By using a jumper between the lead and normal channel inputs and plugging into the other input of the lead channel, you could have the whole enchilada.
Thanks for the response.
Rod
There's only two kinds of music. . . . blues and zippity doo dah.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10419 is a reply to message #10418] |
Thu, 05 February 2009 19:39 |
pleat
Messages: 1454
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi
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Senior Member |
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I have owned several of both the A and the B series. The fuzz on both models are terrible sounding. My 65 Fuzz face beat the harmonic clipper hands down. The A series all effects were on the left channel. The B series the effects were split, revb. Trem, on left channel and the right channel had the selective boost and harmonic clipper. If you have a B series head, you have to choose what effects you want to use. Simply using a Y cord to both channels will give you less than pleasing results. If you use a certain amount of reverb and then want to add clipper from the other channel the left channel is still clean with reverb, the right channel has clipper, so with both volume controls set the same, both channels in effect are cancelling out the intensity of both. It is impossible to get a great sounding fuzz on the right channel while the left channel is amplifying a clean sound with reverb.
I asked Bud in 2000 at the Nashville show why the B series were changed to split the effects to two channels instead of leaving all effects on one channel. Bud couldn't remember why it was changed, he thought maybe that a lot of musicians would share one amp. On the A series being a better system than the B series, The A series were not as stable as the B series, More noise in the A series, and not as much bracing in the chassis. The A series were also a 1/2" less in depth than the B series. So Covers for a A series will not fit the B series.
pleat
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10420 is a reply to message #10419] |
Thu, 05 February 2009 21:00 |
Optyk
Messages: 125
Registered: August 2006
Location: Texas
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Senior Member |
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OK, that's the same problem I had with the Vox Buckingham. It worked, but you never could get exactly what you wanted out of it.
Based on that, then the A series would be more desirable to me. Was the B series just created as a cost saving maneuver for the company, then? Why would anyone want the B series instead of the more versatile A series?
Rod
There's only two kinds of music. . . . blues and zippity doo dah.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10428 is a reply to message #10420] |
Fri, 06 February 2009 10:13 |
pleat
Messages: 1454
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi
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Senior Member |
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There were no cost savings with the B series. Better components, better bracing in the corners, better heat sinks, and better mounting of the power transformer, actually cost more in construction terms than the A series. I think we are still talking about two things here, Why the A series had all the effects on the left channel and why the B series split them between the two channels. Even Bud didn't have an answer for that. But the one major issue is the actual tone of of the clipper. Tone is a very personal thing, but I will state that on every kustom amp I have owned, both A and B series, the clipper sucks. Bud did tell us last December that the A series amps, the clipper circuit was on a board behind a first board, and that the brass stand off's between the boards were the grounds between the boards. They had some problems and finally they added a ground wire between the boards to make sure that both boards had a good ground. Any distortion pedal on the market today will outshine the original clipper circuit. I also notice more background hiss on the A series. Kustom also had some issues with the A series XLR style footswitch plugs and even sent out a dealer memo to make sure the screw that held the plug in the casing was tight to make sure that the ground was made.
pleat
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10430 is a reply to message #10428] |
Fri, 06 February 2009 12:11 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006
Registered: April 2003
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Senior Member |
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First off, jumpering channels will allow all FX to work, but because the FX will be working in parallel they won't work in what most players would consider a normal way. Let's say in the case of using tremolo and distortion, the distored signal is not tremolo-ed, only the clean signal is.
Pleat:
As for the clipper sound, the circuit comes after the first pre-amp stage, so it's distortion is partly controlled by the level of the signal coming out of the pre-amp. If you turn up the volume control as if it were a gain control the clipper will have more signal to work with and will sound smoother and fuzzier. Unfortunately when you switch off the clipper, the volume jump will be totally nuts.
And, I agree that the B-series amps are better designed than the A's. The physical construction alone makes them a far superior amp chassis.
Another "problem" with the A-series heads that the B-series addressed is that the FX are all normally off. Unlike the A-series on the B-series you don't need to use a footswitch in order to use them.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10438 is a reply to message #10408] |
Sat, 07 February 2009 14:20 |
rodak
Messages: 516
Registered: October 2001
Location: Georgia
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Senior Member |
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What exactly is "Selective Boost"? Is it just some fixed hi/lo/mid filters? Anyone know what frequency band(s) each setting boosts? Just curious.
They may not sound very good, or be very useful, but I just like the idea of having an amp with a Harmonic Clipper and Selective Boost.
www.combo-organ.com
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10439 is a reply to message #10408] |
Sun, 08 February 2009 09:59 |
Optyk
Messages: 125
Registered: August 2006
Location: Texas
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Senior Member |
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The Selective Boost seems to me to be something similar to the MRB (midrange boost) that my Vox Buckingham had. It had three selectable ranges. Vox finally took the idea, but used pots instead of switches so the sweep range of frequency boost was infinitely variable, put it in a footpedal and renamed the effect "wah wah".
Now, I also like the idea of having an amp with Selective Boost and Harmonic Clipper. But the reality is, if I was still using that Vox Buckingham, I wouldn't be using the MRB because I own a wah pedal (a genuine Vox from the 60's). I also wouldn't be using the built in distortion in the Buckingham because there was no way to alter the distortion. It was on or it was off, end of options. With my Boss Blues Driver 2 pedal, I have a wide range of tones available to me, and actually use several settings on the unit, depending on the song, of course.
I'd still be using the reverb on the Buckingham. The vibrato/tremelo would get used once every blue moon. So the Vox Buckingham has a lot of circuitry that I wouldn't be using. Apparently, so would the K200B-4. It's all about the tone. Always.
So, you guys have convinced me that I'm better off with my K200B-5. Having four separate channels gives me the option of having up to 4 different guitars, each with their own customizable Volume, Treble, Bass and Reverb settings, plus whatever pedals I want to use on each particular guitar, is better for what I do than lugging four different amps. I get the basic tone I want from the Kustom for each of my guitars. The pedals give me more options than I'd have with a Kustom K200B-4 (pr A-4), so I guess I've found the Kustom amp that works for me best. Having all those effects in one amp still sounds like a wonderful thing, but if the effects won't give me tones I'll actually use, I'm better off with what I have.
Thanks again for your input.
Rod
Rod
There's only two kinds of music. . . . blues and zippity doo dah.
[Updated on: Sun, 08 February 2009 10:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10445 is a reply to message #10439] |
Mon, 09 February 2009 09:40 |
chicagobill
Messages: 2006
Registered: April 2003
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Senior Member |
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| Optyk wrote on Sun, 08 February 2009 08:59 |
It's all about the tone. Always.
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Yes it is. If you need 4 guitars with 4 different EQ settings then the PA head with reverb is perfect for you.
Personally, I don't play out anymore so my needs are far simpler. I love to play any of my guitars through any of my amps just to see what each one can do. I used to want to have one guitar and one amp that could cover all possible sounds and styles, but I have learned that you can't get there from here. I've never found a Strat that could sound just like a Les Paul nor a Fender tube amp that could sound like a Kustom amp.
Two of my favorite amps have always been the Fender Bassman and the Kustom K200B-1. Both are great for guitar use and both give you a basic clean tone that you can use for rock, blues, country and even jazz. Unless I needed it for the effect (playing surf tunes), I always felt that reverb didn't really help the mix when playing live.
As for the Selective Boost it is similar in effect to the Vox MRB control, but because it's built on an inductorless circuit, it never sounded quite as honky. I assume that because the Vox had three switch positions, Kustom had to have six.
And as for the wah pedal, the later metal front Kustoms had the Selective Boost control pedal, that converted the it into an adjustable wah wah.
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10449 is a reply to message #10445] |
Mon, 09 February 2009 11:46 |
pleat
Messages: 1454
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi
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Senior Member |
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I agree with Brad, this post have covered a lot of ground. Besides the questions about the K200A and K200B and also some comments on the K250 slant face amps, I guess I would like to add a couple of more comments. On the The very first series of the K250 amps, both inputs were the same gain. Kustom had a lot of complaints of not much power with single coil guitars. So they sent a dealer memo stating that they changed the input jacks and all amps following the memo would be shipped with the change. The lower input jack on each channel was changed to a hotter input. So the arrangement would be a better mix for humbucker guitars using the top input and single coil guitars using the lower input. Something everyone who owns a slant face amp might want to check. On the issue of finding one guitar to do a lot, I'd suggest the Fender VG Strat. It has normal single coil strat sounds. It also has a Roland pickup that allows for 37 different sounds. Modeling includes Strat on styroids, Tele, Dual Humbucker, 5 acoustic guitars, 5 tuning modes and 12 string that can be used on any of modeling pickup selections. Very convincing. The humbucking mode will rip your head off. Just a really great guitar. I now leave the LP Tele and acoustic guitar at home now.
pleat
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10451 is a reply to message #10449] |
Tue, 10 February 2009 10:38 |
Optyk
Messages: 125
Registered: August 2006
Location: Texas
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Senior Member |
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I agree that at first blush, it looks like this thread covered a lot of individual topics. And looking back at my original post, it doesn't really give you the idea that what I was wanting to know was about the tone and usability of the effects of the K200B-4. And that's my fault for not being as specific as I could have been.
What I was doing was attempting to decide whether I wanted to start looking for a deal on a K200B-4. In other words, completing that childhood dream that I've had for years.
But I'm not a child any longer. I like shoes that fit well, whether they're "cool" or not. Effective function on my guitar rig is more important than tons of functions or pedals that I have no need for, regardless of how "cool" they might look or how envious other musicians might be about the rig I'm running. I have three amps. My main one is my K200B-5 running into a 3 x 15 Kustom cab that I've modified to have two 15's and two 8's. If I'm going to only carry one amp to a gig, that's the rig I'm taking. I have six guitars. I play one of them about 90% of the time. The others trade off for the other 10% of the time. I could just use the one and get by just fine. My K200B-5 head is blue sparkle. My 3x15 Kustom cab is black. It would be cooler if they matched. They don't.
I run only a Boss Blues Driver 2 distortion pedal and a Boss tuning pedal 90% of the time. Reverb, I get from the K200B-5. Occasionally, I'll plug in the Vox Crybaby Wah pedal if I'm in the mood. Even more rarely, I plug in the Ibanez Flanger pedal that I picked up at a garage sale for $2.
That's it. I get the tone I want from that setup. I can be up and running in very few minutes. I have other amps that have vibrato, real tube overdrive, etc., but it's rare for me to use them.
This thread was about tone. And everyone that answered gave me some feedback about the Harmonic Clipper and the Selective Boost or the Vibrato/Tremolo. And they gave me information about how you could use those effects.
So, while getting to the information I was dumb enough not to ask for, you guys gave me exactly what I really wanted to know. There was a K200B-4 for sale on eBay. Based on your information, I'm going to relegate that childhood dream to the fantasy of a child. You won't be fighting against me in that auction. In my present circumstances, I can get more use out of something else and you guys made me realize it. I'll try to do better asking my questions in the future. But as far as this thread, I think it stayed right on topic. I just didn't have sense enough to describe the actual topic. Blame that one on me.
Thanks again. This board is a fantastic resource for information and we have some extremely sharp folks that donate their time and energy to help others.
Rod
There's only two kinds of music. . . . blues and zippity doo dah.
[Updated on: Tue, 10 February 2009 12:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10452 is a reply to message #10451] |
Tue, 10 February 2009 16:26 |
rodak
Messages: 516
Registered: October 2001
Location: Georgia
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Senior Member |
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| Optyk wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 10:38 |
...My K200B-5 head is blue sparkle. My 3x15 Kustom cab is black...
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Right now, that there is your most serious problem.
www.combo-organ.com
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| Re: Questions about K200B-4 [message #10456 is a reply to message #10455] |
Tue, 10 February 2009 21:39 |
pleat
Messages: 1454
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi
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Senior Member |
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Optyk, it has been a real treat talking kustoms, even if the thread has covered more gound than most threads. I think I'll start a new one and see what happens.
pleat
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