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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6689 is a reply to message #6686] |
Wed, 22 February 2006 09:57   |
BC
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2000
Location: Kentucky
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Senior Member |
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Some of the later 200B series amps had labeled jacks on the back of them like the 250 series. If your amp has an output to power module jack on it you can go from there into a power amp and run whatever wattage your speakers will stand. Last year I experimented with an 800 watt Peavey amp and 4 Kustom 3x15 cabinets. LOTS OF POWER.....but I really do not know where I would use it. Since most bands are miked through a larger sound system the only time I use anything other than a 2x15 or 3x15 is when I am wanting my Kustoms to be seen. Remember,the Kustom sound is a vintage tone from a different time. Four string bass was the normal. It is not the tight...flat....punch I hear so much today in a lot of music with 5 and 6 strings. A friend modified a 2x15 cabinet for a guy and put an 18 and a 12 in it to extend the tonal range for his 5 string.....and he still had the Kustom look and sound from the 200 head. Lots of options to consider. I have been toying with the idea of loading two fifteens in a 3x12 cabinet to see what the additional cabinet volume would do for the tone. BC
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6707 is a reply to message #6670] |
Mon, 27 February 2006 10:59 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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I will disagree respectfully of course with my learned colleagues here. I have a few Kustom's and I too thirsted for more power with them.
The general rule of thumb to get three Db more of power is to double your wattage. So 1000 watts over your 100 watts would double the power once to 200 watts and you make three more Db. Double it again to four hundred and you'll increase the volume by another three Db. Double it again to 800 watts and you'll get three more Db louder. I think that you are getting the picture of where a thousand watts would take you.
I did more power at first by hooking two Kustom heads with their respective cabs together with a stereo chorus pedal that also had built in boost.
It worked pretty good but I wanted still more. So I have a eight hundred watt power amp. I used a small mixer that I use as a spair for my main mixer as the Preamp and hooked that combo up to a couple of Kustom cabs. The results was a nice loud clean bass thump.
But no ill effects of any kind just a nice deep loud tone. Since it was running thru 8 ohm Kustom cabs I was probably putting out about 200 watts per cab. That is a bit more than their seemly 120 watt rating with their 2x15's combined.
Then I got kinda lucky one day and found a 450 watt behringer ultra bass head on sale for 189. I jumped on it. It drives two cabs now at 450 watts for both cabs. Again no ill effects and it puts 225 watts per cab. The ultra bass effect even sounds good on it when engaged.
I'm mainly a guitar player but I have three basses. In addition I have had three bass players out here using this set up with all manner of basses this year. So it had gotten a pretty good workout about once per week at least at that level. Its pretty loud. Probably a lot louder than you really ever need. But it sure is nice to have power on call if you should need it.
The main benifit of this is no distortion. When you run a K200 head over four it tends to get into distortion territory with bass. My Kustom heads continue to get worked out though. I have use them as amps for my Leslie with my organs thru one and with my piano thru another into Kustom cabs. I only have to run them on two since keyboards have direct active circuits and do not loose power so bad like guitar or bass pickups.
If you do play guitar just try the following experiment one day if you have or can borrow the gear. Run your guitar with and A/B switch to a Fender Tone Master (100 tube watts) then with the A/B switch run and additional Fender Evil Twin (100 tube watts) at the same time. Be prepared to clean up the paint that will peal off onto your floor.
I'd hate to be around to find out what a Thousand Watts would do. I don't think any earplugs made would save you.
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6710 is a reply to message #6670] |
Mon, 27 February 2006 13:07 |
stevem
Messages: 4748
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY
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Senior Member |
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The DB log scale was devised because it was found that for the human ear to notice a doubling in sound pressure( IE loudness), it required a times ten increase in electrical power. Your fender test works because you have doubled your speakers, which if both amps are equiped with the same speakers will! double the sound pressure. Going from 100 watts to 200 watts will only provide you with twice the amount of clean head room before the amp distorts. Heres a simple test that two people, a guitar and amp, and a a/c volt meter can do. Hook the volt meter across your speaker output, set it for a/c volts to at least a 20 volt scale, have the other person pluck the open G string with a steady attack to show 2 volts on the meter. Both people should make a mental note of the sound pressure felt. now turn up the amp untill you see 20 volts on the meter, you will both now clearly note a doulbling in sound pressure.Even the best, highest SPL rated cone speakers leave alot to be desired effiency wise. look at it this way, a good guitar speaker is rated at 98 Db with 1 watt of input. The speaker can handle 100 watts, at 100 watts of input the DB output of the speaker as only gone up to 111 Db!
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6712 is a reply to message #6710] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 03:07 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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Steven,I have based my input solely on real world observations, those of my band mates, and of course venue patrons. But believe me there is a massive volume difference no matter who ears are listening. Your actual milage of course may vary.
C4, like you I am a bit sneaky about it too. Especially in live situations. The ideal solution to having as much Kustom in the mix as possible would be to by pass the internal amp in one Kustom head but still using its preamp section to send the signal to the 800 watt power amp.
I always hide the brand X'er. My Mopar's have all Mopar engines in a way and in a way they don't. The block, waterpumps, starter, and such are all Mopar build. But the engines have Ross Piston's, Eagle Rods, Callies Cranks, Ultra Dyne Cam's, and subeck lifters to name a few things. Of course these parts were designed for and to be in Mopar engines not a subaru. But they were not build by Mother Mopar herself. So are they still Mopar's? I'd say yes..
I only have one Kustom that does not have its orginal speakers. But it did'nt have any speakers when I got it. So that was sorta already decieded for me. I had a new bass player come out this Saturday and has now joined the group. His statement was these big rolled and pleated things sure sound good and are very loud.
Forge I was wondering about those Delta Kappon's. I did order a set of the Delta's for some Pa cabs and the hundred watt each speakers already in those cabs are going in the one Kustom that I own that does not have its orginal speakers. So I too am wondering how its gonna react to becoming a four ohm cab?
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6717 is a reply to message #6716] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 08:50 |
C4ster
Messages: 686
Registered: June 2001
Location: Mukwonago, WI (Milwaukee...
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Senior Member |
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I think upping your power by installing new pistons, cam, crank, heads is similar to installing Motorola transistors and new Mallory caps in your Kustom. But installing a Chevy 350 (Yawn) in my 67 Satellite would be just plain wrong. Placing a Fender 100 watter on the top of a Kustom is not that bad but installing the guts in a K200 head to make people think that it is a K200, WELLLLLLLLL, that is outright deception.
Conrad
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6719 is a reply to message #6718] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 09:08 |
C4ster
Messages: 686
Registered: June 2001
Location: Mukwonago, WI (Milwaukee...
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Senior Member |
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NO! NO! NO! I better read what I wrote. I might have said that but I didn't mean it. I'll go check.
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6720 is a reply to message #6719] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 09:26 |
C4ster
Messages: 686
Registered: June 2001
Location: Mukwonago, WI (Milwaukee...
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Senior Member |
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I was right. Don't do it. I actually have the idea to place 2 K200 power amp boards, and power supplies in a K200 head. Then connect the outputs in a bridge mode. I would expect to get 400 watts into 8 ohms but I haven't had the time to experiment yet. Just an idea. (hairbrained at best)
Conrad
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6723 is a reply to message #6670] |
Thu, 02 March 2006 01:55 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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If you bridged two K200's at eight ohms would'nt you just get one hundred watts or maybe a hundred and twenty watts at eight ohms instead of the now sixty? Then you would also just get two hundred watts at four ohms? Since a single K200 only puts out 100 watts at four ohms now.
No chevy 350's in any of my Mopar LOL.. They are junk as far as I'm concerned. If you ever go to a race there is a reason why the chevy people have two to three engines in their trailors on engine stands ready and waiting.
I have a good buddy who is a dyed in the wool chevy man. He has even won the national hot rod shoot out once. But he will be the first to admit that a Mopar engine is tougher.
My Mopars are two fifth avenues, one neon, one 70 Road Runner, one 69 Super Bee, three Duster's and one Dart. I'm retired now so I don't need so many cars neither do I have any intentions of fixing up that many. So this spring when the weather clears the Duster's and the Dart will be sold.
Oh Steven if I were not a Mopar man I would be a Pontiac one but not the new Pontiac. I had a 69 GTO and really like the earlier ones as the well as the early Firebirds before when they had real Pontiac motors in them.
Back on amps. I have no intentions of putting a Fender Twin in a Kustom its staying in the Twin. I just used it as a volume example. I do use a Behringer head and a 800 watt QSC power amp on my Kustom cabs from time to time though.
Tube watts to SS watts are like apples to oranges. It takes about two and half SS watts to equal one Tube watt on average. Wattage is rated before distortion. SS amps reach their maximum power before distortion at also full tilt. Whereas most Tube amps will began to distort on volume settings of just three or four. But they keep right on getting louder and louder the more you turn them up.
As and example I have a couple of 30 watt SS Vox Cambridge amps. In general you would think that they would be a match for my 22 watt all Tube Deluxe Reverb amp or 15 watt all Tube Pro Jr. amp. But in fact they get eaten alive by them.
Thats why bass players have such a hard time or one of them in staying with a susposedly less powerful guitar amp. The other problem is that lower frequencies take more power to push out. Our Kustom's were in a very real sense the first modern bass amp and they kept that lead until the seventies. If Ross had not gotten out and sold Kustom he had more advanced Kustom's in the works.
Another option for us Kustom freaks is the new 700 watt Kustom head. Rock on.
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6724 is a reply to message #6670] |
Thu, 02 March 2006 08:11 |
stevem
Messages: 4748
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY
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Senior Member |
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Yup! it takes alot of power to drive bass frequences. if you have a grphic eq in your PA or bass rig and you go to boost lets say 100 cycles, by 3 DB, you are asking the power amp to double its output.Since even the best bass speakers are down 6 DB at 40 cycles compared to their SPL output at 1000 cycles, you can see how important it is to have a large amount of clean head room wattage on your side for lows.I`ve heard good things about the new Kustom grove heads.That kind of power per dollar is great! If I did not already have my 2001 400 watt kustom head, I would go right out and get one of the new groove`s and make a custom tuck -n-roll case for it!I have a 70 GTO, and back in 78 when I use to street race it, and before I had my flow bench, I had a problem keeping up with the local cars with hemi`s and BB chevys. So I toossed out the 400, dumped in a 455 and put a 6-71 blower with 2 fours on it. That evened things out nice!Today with a friend of mine we race a 455 67 firebird in heavy class in the down in the low 9s in the 1/4 mile at 138 mph. with factory cast iron non- performance heads that I ported. everybody expects to see aluminum heads on the motor, we may step up to those next year and run in the 8s.
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6728 is a reply to message #6725] |
Thu, 02 March 2006 14:49 |
C4ster
Messages: 686
Registered: June 2001
Location: Mukwonago, WI (Milwaukee...
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Senior Member |
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Let' try this again. I had a beautifully composed message and I somehow lost my internet connection and my composed mail at the same time. I have come back to reality. I ran the numbers again and if I bridge 2 K200 power boards, I will get 200 watts out not 400. That doesn't make it worthwhile to butcher a working amp for so little return. Sorry about the buildup. I should have seen it. A QSC PLX 3402 will generate 1700 watts into 2 ohms. With both channels driven that wouldl be 3400 watts. If I run the amp bridged, I would get 3400 watts into 4 ohms so the net result is the same. What was I thinking. Now, how many guys here are Mopar fans? I have a 67 Satellite that I want to start working on this summer. My wife insists that I pay off all of my Kustom stuff before I start the car. It has a 318 that I want to stroke to 392 and cap off with aluminum Mopar heads. Along with a decent cam, manifold, headers, and carb (fuel injection?) I should make good horses. BTW, for you non gearheads, stroking my 318 is NOT SEXUAL!!! Whooops, we just chaged this site to "car talk".
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6733 is a reply to message #6731] |
Thu, 02 March 2006 22:45 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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There is a lot to be said for experience and BC has more of it as a bass player than probably all of us put together. I am the fortunate owner of a double cab Kustom.
Forge the Behringer 450 is a copy of the Ashdown. Most everything Behringer makes is pretty much a direct copy of what some one else makes. Some people say thats a rip off. I happen to think it shows just how much profit some of these companies are making.
C4Caster, I think you are right no use in butchering two Kustom heads for little increase. If you already had a Kustom 400 however that would be a worth while mod as the two amp sections are already there. So why not?
I would think that the QSC3402 would be a bit much on any Kustom cabs. I have one and use it thru eight Yamaha mains and it still makes 425 watts per cab. My subs only carry 2,500 watts total for both cabs.
I will probably wind up with one of the new Kustom heads hid out a bit. Its in my experience with my 800 watt power amp and the Behringer would be able to carry any up to and including outdoors by itself. Although Pa mic'ing is a possibility. But I hardly ever take my subs anywhere.
The Behringer is so small that it will easily fit into the Vox heads of the AC100 or the Super Beatle. So thats probably where it will wind up.
I am about to put two emmience 8 ohm, 100 watt speakers into a nice old Blue Kustom as a single bass cab. I have never heard a single Kustom cab at four ohms under a lot of power. It should be interesting.
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| Re: MORE POWER! [message #6734 is a reply to message #6733] |
Thu, 02 March 2006 22:50 |
QModer
Messages: 413
Registered: June 2003
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Senior Member |
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If you really wanna see something insulting. There is a guy here in a fairly popular oldies band who uses one of those old Peavey 420 watt heads with those big ugly knobs on it thru a black Kustom 2x15. I have no idea what kind of speakers he has in it.
I heard them outdoors at what's called the big spring jam because the name of the park is big spring park. It has dozens of big name acts at it as well.
When the oldies band I talked about above played the Pa went down. The keyboard player was Di'ed. The guitar player had a Line Six. The only things heard until the Pa went back up was the drummer and that bass player.
BC, where at and what times is the big guitar show in Nashville this weekend?
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ya kinda like that
If we ever use a power amp to increase the sound of my son's bass, I use a Sunn SA21 600 watt bridged amp through a pair of 3x15 siren PA cabs with the K200 sitting on top. The picture used to be on KustomPlayer.com but I don't know what happened to him. If you had a K400 with 2 4 ohm cabinets, that would be the smallest rig for that power. The original setup would be a K400 with 4 8 ohm cabinets as God and Bud had intended.
